Wilhelm Besler and Ernestine Hiller

Hello, sorry, I will use English, please answer me in any language, I will use Google Translate.

I'm looking for information about my great-great-grandparents Wilhelm Besler (Bessler, Wolter?) and Ernestine Hiller, parents of my great-grandmother Olga Besler(1901-1956 Paraguay), married to Ferdinand Hilscher(1891-1987 Paraguay).

All my family, Rosin and Hilscher, came from Toptscha (Topcha), Kolowert II and nearby places like Horodischtsche (Horodyszcze), so it makes a lot of sense to me that the Besler's also come from there.

According to the information that Frank Stewner put in Olga Besler's profile in FamilySearch, she was born in Horodischtsche precisely on August 6, 1901 (he didn't cite sources) and according to Gary Warner he put that she married Ferdinand Hilscher on March 18, 1923 in Poland (he also didn't cite sources), they had a daughter Alma Hilscher who was born in Europe, and then they emigrated to Argentina where they had some children until finally ending up in Paraguay where my grandmother was born.

Olga supposedly had siblings Alwine, Mathilde and Adolf, I estimate that they could also have been born near those towns, and they were surely born at some point close to her (between 1880-1920 ¿?).

So if my great-grandmother Olga was born in 1901, I suppose that her parents Wilhelm and Ernestine could have been born between 1850-1880, perhaps, they could have also been born in Poland because I understand and following the trace of the Rosins and Hilschers it's seen that at that time started the big migration from Poland to Volhynia, but I can't find any information about Wilhelm and Ernestine there either, my ancestors in Poland almost all come from the area of Wielkopolskie (Greater Poland) and Lodzkie.

But well, that, I am looking for information about Wilhelm Besler and Ernestine Hiller because they are really a mystery within my family tree, I appreciate all the answers.

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3090 Views

Hallo Jose,

deine Vorfahren lebten in einem Kirchspiel, für das es fast keine Kirchenbücher mehr gibt. Ich finde leider keine Informationen zu einem Paar Wilhelm Besler & Ernestine Hiller - keine Heirat, keine Kinder.

According to the information that Frank Stewner put in Olga Besler's profile in FamilySearch, .... and according to Gary Warner...

Wenn es bei FamilySearch keine Quellen gibt, frage am besten bei den Personen an, die diese Einträge gemacht haben (Gary Warner, Frank Stewner). Diese sollten dir die Quellen (hoffentlich) nennen können.

Gruß, Irene

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2772 Views

Hallo Jose,

In meiner Vorfahrenliste habe ich auch die Namen Besler und Hiller. Sie stammen auch aus den Raum Horodischtsche (Horodyszcze). Ich kann zwar keine Zuordnung deiner und meiner Besler's und Hillers finden, aber ich glaube du solltest mal als Ursprungsort das Kalischer Land (den Ort Konin) nehmen. Dort findest du mit Sicherheit mehr über die Besler's

Viel Erfolg

Matthias Sorget

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2729 Views

Hallo Ahnenforscher,

auch in meiner Vorfahrenliste ist der name Besler zu finden.
Konkret: Wilhelmine Besler
* 27.11.1845 in Chozepin, Kreis Poddebice, Bezirk Lodz, Kongresspolen; † ..,.., 1926 in Kutusowka; Kreis Pulin, Gebiet Shitomir, Wolhynien

Viel Erfolg!
Oskar

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2671 Views

Hi there!

Maybe I can give you Information on the Family.

I am in direct line of the Beslers.

Adoph‘s niece still is alive … 87 years old.

Contact me directly.

Best wishes, Mark

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2473 Views

https://forum.wolhynien.de/index.php?id=39049

There I send you an update of the searches I did during this time.

The Adolf I am looking for had to have migrated to Canada, and he had to have been born probably between 1890 and 1895.

He had to have a sister in Paraguay, visited her and sent her letters.

Are we talking about the same Adolf? If so, great, I'll contact you for more information.

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2326 Views

Hello, thank you all for your responses, I would like to update the information I have.

For quick context to remember: Ernestine Hiller and Wilhelm Besler were my great-great-grandparents.

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I have gone to the main source: my GRANDMOTHER (Rosa Hilscher) who is still alive thank God, she would be the granddaughter of Wilhelm and Ernestine, my grandmother's mother: Olga Besler died when my grandmother was 20 years old.

She told me that indeed my great-grandmother's brothers were called Mathilde, Adolph and Alwine.

The order by age was:
1. Adolph
2. Mathilde
3. Alwine
4. Olga

When my great-grandmother (Olga) born, Ernestine Hiller apparently died.

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Other facts about the brothers:

Adolph visited my great-grandmother in Paraguay.
Adolph lived in Canada and wrote letters with my great-grandmother Olga.
She may have also sent letters with Mathilde.

The reason why my grandmother only remembers those 3 brothers is because they were the natural brothers of her mother(her uncles).

The four of them loved each other very much since after Olga they were left without a mother.

The confusion with the surname Wolter may have been that Alwine married a Wolter (Johann Wolter) and called herself Alwine Wolter.

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Wilhelm Besler had more children later, apparently he married another woman, who were my great-grandmother's half-brothers, but no one remembers their names.

Wilhelm Besler was perhaps widowed more than once.

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Information I found in the EWZ archives that I'm pretty sure are my great-grandmother's brothers:

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Alwine Besler, married to Johann Wolter, born in Horodyzczce, 1899.
#36467

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS5T-69KX-1

Both parents are listed as dead by 1940

Instead of Ernestine the mother is named Augustine, typo?

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Margarethe Hoft (born in Kolowert, 1926)

Parents:
Mathilde Besler, married to Emil Hoft (1879-)

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS5T-DSHD-Z

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As Adolf was the eldest (according to my grandmother) one would expect him to have been born before 1896 (the year Matilda was presumably born).

Furthermore I can affirm that Ernestine Hiller who died most likely in 1901 (the year my great-grandmother Olga was born), 1902 or close to there, useful to refine the search.

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Anyone who has taken the time to read all this, thank you, I'm happy to share things about my family, thanks to Margarit Schäfer also who helped me a little too.

I'm catching up on what you wrote on the forum, I'm honest, I haven't read it since Christmas when you closed it, sorry for not responding faster, +90% of this search was done during the holiday period between Christmas and New Year, nothing more, thank you.

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2389 Views

Hallo Zusammen.

Nun habe ich zu meinen Besler eine Lösung gefunden.

Meine Alteltern Johann Henkelman und Julianne Besler,
Meine Urgroßeltern Johann Henkelmann und Julianne Besler.

Verwirrend für ein Ahnenforscher. Ich verzweifelte des öfteren an diese Kombination.

Nun habe ich aus Pozan-Project, Odessa DB, geneteka.genealodzy.pl und My Heritage eine aufwendige Vergleichsarbeit vollzogen, und komme bei der Familie Besler zu folgenden Bild.

Wilhelm Besler verheiratet mit Ernestine Hiller

Vater: Gottlieb Martin Besler geb 1841 im Kalischer Land verstorben in .., Tutschin, Wolhynien
Mutter: Anna Wetter geb. 1844 im Kalischer Land verstorben 1887 in .., Tutschin, Wolhynien
Heirat: 1862 im Kalischer Land

Geschwister von Gottlieb Martin Besler

Anna Julianne Besler Henkelmann 1838- 1816 (meine Altmutter)
Christoph Besler 1831-????
Johann Karl Ferdinand Besler 1829-????
Johann Karl Besler 1822-????
Anna Marianne Besler Nachring/ Nehring 1820-????
Emilie Besler ????-????

Geschwister von Wilhelm Besler

Adolf Besler
Adoline Besler / Bonkowski
Fritz Besler +1916
Gottfried Besler 1868-????
Juliane Besler 1870-1918 (meine Urgroßmutter)
Rosalie Besler / Weidemann 1873-????
Mathilde Besler 1876-????
Emilie Besler, Schulz 1879-1954
Augustine Besler 1881-????
Pauline Besler 1884- nach 1940

Vater von Gottlieb Besler
Christoph August Besler 1795 Kalischer Land 1878 .. Tutschin, Wolhynien
Mutter von Gottlieb Besler
Karoline Ebel ca 1800- ????
Hochzeit 1819 Kalischer Land

Vater von Christoph August Besler
Johann Besler 1755-1810
Vater von Karoline Ebel
Johann Christian Ebel

Liebe Grüße

Matthias

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299 Views

Hi Mathias, that's right.

I always keep the information I found updated on FamilySearch:

Christoph Besler profile:
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/details/GDZ1-QR4

Wilhelm Besler FamilySearch profile:
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/details/G75K-1QK

Some of the things you mentioned were new to me, or I only suspected them, like the marriages of Wilhelm Besler's sisters. Thank you for your research.

The people who lived in Horodyszcze, Tutschin are very confusing because there isn't much information available.

The Beslers were a family from Konin, more precisely from Stare Miasto.

I didn't look through all of Konin's records properly, so there are some birth dates I don't know precisely.

I'm going to take this opportunity to also write down some information here.
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As far as I know:
Johann Besler (*~1765 - +5.9.1810, Stare Miasto)
Anna Marianna Fritz (*~1770)

1. Christoph Besler (*~1798 - +15.3.1878 Kolowert)
2. Michael Besler (*~1803 - 21.3.1867 Volhynia), married to Caroline Wollschläger (⚭ 1825, Goslawice)
3. Marianna Besler (*18.1.1820 Stare Miasto)

It's possible that this Besler family are related to the Beslers who lived in Pasieka, Izbica in the 1790s but I cannot verify this yet and sadly maybe I never will because I believe the records around that time of Izbica were lost and they have indexes that only mention those baptized without their parents.

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Christoph Besler & Caroline Ebel
⚭23.11.1819 (Zychlin ew-ref.)

1. Anna Marianna Besler (*14.5.1820), married to Johann August Nehring (⚭ 1848, Zychlin)
2. Johann Besler (*~1822 - +29.1.1849 Stare Miasto)
3. Johann Ferdinand Besler (*~1825 - +25.6.1839 Konin)
4. Anna Carolina Besler (*4.5.1826 Stare Miasto - +25.6.1828 Konin)
5. Johann Karl Besler (*20.3.1828 Konin)
6. Karl August Besler (*~1830), married to Caroline Klein (⚭ 1847, Konin) & Marianna Polutke (⚭ 1860, Wladyslawow)
7. Christoph Besler (*~1831), married to Anna Carolina Schiebel (⚭ 1863, Konin)
8. Gottfried Besler (*~1834), married to Carolina Helbing (⚭ 1855, Wladyslawow)
9. Anna Julianna Besler (*~1838), married to Wilhelm Henkel / Henkelmann (⚭ 1863, Konin)
10. Gottlieb Martin Besler (*29.10.1840, Stare Miasto), married to Marianna Wetter (⚭ 1862, Konin)
11. Emilie Besler (*28.2.1843, Stare Miasto - +~1873), married to Johann August Nehring (⚭ 1866, Konin)
-----------------------------------

About the children of Gottlieb Besler and Marianna Wetter is pretty good, in fact I didn't know about the case of Fritz Besler, where did you get the information about his death in 1916, which is a crazy year to get information.

That Fritz Besler could have been my great-great-grandfather Wilhelm because I don't know his date of death, but it was between 1915 and 1922.

Some of the relationships of the girls you mentioned I suspected about them, but I didn't dare to confirm them.

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Wilhelm Besler (*~1867 - +1915 to 1922)
Augustine (Ernestine) Hiller (*1.3.1872 Tutschin area, probably Horodyszcze - +20.8.1903 Horodyszcze)
⚭~1891

1. Adolf Besler (*~21.9.1891 - +26.4.1989 Weyburn, Saskatchewan), married to Pauline Martin (⚭ 1918, Sask.)
2. Emil Besler (*~1895 - 19.5.1907 Horodyszcze)
3. Mathilde Besler (*~21.2.1896 - +Germany), married to Emil Höft (⚭ 1921, Tutschin), EWZ 18427
4. Ottilie Besler (*~1898 - +16.9.1902 Horodyszcze)
5. Alwine Besler (*~1.3.1899 - +8.1.1998 Runkel, Hesse), married Johann Wolter (⚭ 1920, Tutschin), EWZ 36467
6. Olga Besler (*~2.8.1901 Horodyszcze - +20.3.1956 Hohenau, Itapua), married to Ferdinand Hilscher (⚭ ~1923, Tutschin)
7. Heinrich Besler (*~3.1903 - +16.7.1903 Horodyszcze)
------------------
2nd marriage:
⚭ 10.2.1904 Tutschin
Wilhelm Besler
Carolina Hein (*14.3.1877 ~Dabie - +20.7.1906 Horodyszcze)

1. Albert Besler (*27.3.1905 Horodyszcze)
2. Julius Besler (*~X.7.1906 - 30.7.1906 Horodyszcze)
------------------
3rd marriage:
⚭ ~1908 Tutschin
Wilhelm Besler
Helene Hein (*23.12.1887 Tuschin area), sister of Caroline Hein, she married as a widow Gustav Klingbeil (⚭ 1922, Tutschin), EWZ 36493

1. Eduard Besler (*8.1.1910 Horodyszcze)
2. Reinhold Besler (*22.4.1911 Horodyszcze - + Canada)
3. Julius Besler (*19.7.1912 Horodyszcze)
4. Emma Besler (*14.12.1913 Horodyszcze), married to Andreas Hauschildt (⚭ 1934 Tutschin), EWZ 111988

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Perhaps something sad thing about this family, now that I've learned a bit more from my grandmother is that it seems they went through difficult time in terms of living together after Augustine (Ernestine) Hiller died.

Wilhelm Besler then remarried twice times.
His eldest son, Adolf, emigrated as fast as he could, apparently when he was only like 18 yo in 1912 to Canada.

According to my grandmother, the children from the first marriage: Adolf, Mathilde, Alwine, and Olga, loved and defended each other very much.

Adolf didn't visit my great-grandmother Olga in Paraguay from Canada as I said once I think; instead, they exchanged letters and photos. I have pictures of Adolf Besler's children.
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I'm not sure if I understood your message correctly, but did you understood that both couples were "Johann Henkel & Julianna Besler"?

I always found to the 1840 Wilhelm Henkel (Henkelmann) as Wilhelm, not Johann.

One couple would be
Wilhelm Henkel (*1840) & Julianna Besler (*1838) (⚭ 1863 Konin)
and the other:
Johann Henkel & Julianna Besler (*27.9.1870 Volhynia)

Greetings and Happy Easter.

antworten

320 Views

Hi José

Wau, was für eine Ausführung zur Familie Besler. Danke für deine Informationen und Mühe.

Ich weiß nicht ob ich dich richtig verstanden habe zum Thema Henkelmann. Somit schreib ich es einfach nochmal.

Johann oder Wilhelm?

In meiner Ahnenforschung (Beschreibungen der Familie) zog er mit den Namen Johann ein. Dann kam irgendwann eine Urkunde mit den Doppelnamen Johann Wilhelm in meine Hände. In der Odessa Datenbank taucht er nur noch als Wilhelm Henkelmann auf.
Ich vermute, das er sein Rufname geändert hat. Bis jetzt fand ich jedenfalls keine Widersprüche, die darauf hinweisen, dass es sich um zwei Personen handeln könnte.
So ist er in meiner Ahnenforschung nun als Johann Wilhelm gelistet. Er heiratete dann Anna Julianne Besler, wie hier schon mehrfach beschrieben.
Ich denke wir reden aber von ein und der gleichen Person.

Johann Wilhelm und Anna Julianne hatten dann Kinder:

1. Johann Henkelmann, dieser heiratete dann Julianne Besler, die Tochter von Gottlieb Martin Besler und Anna Maria Wetter.
Da Gottlieb Martin und Anna Julianne Besler Geschwister sind, heiratete Johann Henkelmann seine Cousine Juliane Besler.

Dann gibt es noch eine weitere Verbindung Henkelmann- Besler

Alwine Besler heiratete ein Johann Wolter
Johann Wolter ist der Sohn von Julianne Henkelmann und Julius Wolter.
Julianne Henkelmann ist eine Tochter von Johann Wilhelm und Anna Julianne Besler.
Damit ist Johann Wolter auch ein Besler Nachkomme.

Bleibt noch Fritz Besler übrig.

Die Info habe ich aus einer Familienbeschreibung von Juliane Schulz, verheiratete mit Julius Drawert.
Ihre Mutter ist Emilie Besler, Ihr Vater Albert Schulz.
Den Kontakt hatte ich mit den Nachfahren aufgebaut, da Julius Drawert ein Nachkomme von Wilhelmine Henkelmann ist.
Wilhelmine Henkelmann ist wiederum eine Tochter von Johann Wilhelm Henkelmann und Anna Julianne Besler. Durch Zufall ergab sich nun, das Juliane Schulz eine Nachfahrin der Beslers ist. Julius und Juliane sind damit auch Cousins 2. Grades.

In der Familienbeschreibung heißt es dann: "das Onkel Fritz mit allen 8 Kindern in Sibirien verstorben ist." (Die Beschreibung Sibirien wurde oft von den Wolhyniendeutschen verwendet. Für uns fängt Sibirien erst hinterm Ural an)
Ob Fritz wirklich ein Besler ist, ist noch offen. Denn unter den Tanten und Onkels ihrer Mutter befand sich auch eine Tante die eindeutig zu den Schulz gehörte. Damit wird die Quelle dann doch Fragwürdig.

Ich hoffe du kannst alles gut übersetzen. Falls nicht, frag nochmal gerne nach.

Liebe Grüße

Matthias

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275 Views

Ah, perfect, yes I think I understood.

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Fritz Besler

Yes, I'm asking about Fritz Besler because it sounds like "Friedrich", who were sometimes called "Gottfried" and I sometimes suspect that the Gottfried Besler born in 1868 is my Wilhelm Besler.

Do you know what town this Fritz lived in and his approximate year of birth?

I ask because my Wilhelm (potentially Gottfried) died, as I said, between 1915 and 1922.

He potentially had 9 children alive in 1916, but only 8 would have been in Siberia since the eldest, Adolf, had already migrated to Canada in 1912, as I mentioned. None of his living children were married, so they probably moved around during the exile as the father (Wilhelm), his third wife, Helene Hein, and their eight children.

It would be something like:
-Wilhelm (Gottfried / Fritz?) Besler (*~1867 - + [1915-1922])
-Helene Hein (*1887)

Potential children alive in 1916:
1st marriage children (Augustine Hiller)
0. Adolf (*~1891 but in Canada since 1912)
1. Mathilde (*1896)
2. Alwine (*~1899)
3. Olga (*1901)

2nd marriage (Karolina Hein)
4. Albert (*1905)

3rd marriage (Helene Hein)
5. Eduard (*1910)
6. Reinhold (*1911)
7. Julius (*1912)
8. Emma (*1913)

Mathilde, Alwine, Olga, and Emma definitely survived exile in Siberia. Reinhold most likely did too. I don't know about the others (Albert, Eduard and Julius); perhaps they died as children and I couldn't find those records.

Nothing, the coincidence just caught my attention; perhaps there was simply some confusion in between.

I didn't find any "Fritz Besler" or similar in Agoff's indexes of Landenteignungslisten, perhaps his name was Gotfried or Friedrich, I don't know.

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Johann Wilhelm Henkelmann

Yes, yes, I looked at the Konin records a little bit and I found:

Reg 59. Baptisms 1839. Konin (ev.)
Name: Jan Wilhelm Henkelmann (Johann Wilhelm Henkelmann)

Father: Johann Henkelmann, 37 years old, okupnik (tennant)
Mother: Anna Dorothea Zelmer, 27 years old.

Birth:
August 30, 1839 (Gregorian)
August 18, 1839 (Julian)

Place: Kolonia Czarków (Nowy Czarków)

Witnesses:
Bogumil Kryger (Gottlieb Krüger), 33 yo
Bogumil Kryger (Gottlieb Krüger), 27 yo
Both okupnik (tennants) from Kolonia Czarków.

If I understand all correctly.

In the index he appears simply as "Wilhelm Henkelmann"; I would say that's how most people referred to him.

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Connections in the Besler family

And here I'm going to close with something perhaps controversial haha.

Honestly, the only place in my family tree where I see this kind of marriages between "not-so-distant" relatives is on my Besler side (Besler-Hiller).

Wilhelm Besler's parents were Gottlieb Martin Besler and Anna Marianna Wetter.

And they were "half cousins" sharing one grandmother: Marianna Fritz.

After Johann Besler's death in 1810, Marianna Fritz married Augner (1812) and then Wetter (1819).
Marianna Wetter is the granddaughter of this Wetter-Fritz marriage, so, as I said, she is a "half cousin" of her husband, Gottlieb Besler.

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Even more controversial I think is the case of Augustine Hiller's grandfather: Friedrich Wilhelm Hiller, who married his half-niece, Wilhelmine Strohschein (Strohscherer / Stroscher).

Wilhelmine was the daughter of Christoph's half-sister: Catherine Hiller.

Christoph Hiller (*1755 -)
1st wife: Christine Zellmer (? - + ~1802)
---Catherine Hiller (*1797 - +1855), married to Andreas Strohscherer / Stroschein
------Wilhelmine (*1818 - +1852)

2nd wife: Catharina Zielke (*~1780)
(∞ 1802, Wladyslawow)
---Friedrich Wilhelm Hiller (*~1813)

It's truly bizarre, in my opinion.
It caught my attention because it's just another story of this kind on that side of my family, haha. Obviously, I want to believe it wasn't the norm, but it's certainly curious and striking.

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Wilhelm Besler and Ernestine Hiller